Winter Wonderland

Snow, snow, snow!!! It has been snowing almost all day the past week. Sure make being outside in the cold much more fun!!!
This is the path near my apartment building. The management plow the sidewalks in the morning and not long after, the path is covered with snow again.
At the area where the snow is not plowed, we got snow as deep as 1 feet!! Even the hydrant's body was covered with snow!!On the first few days, the snow was only lightly covering the path and on campus, they did a good job at removing it before everyone get to campus. The picture below is at the sidewalk near the building where my lab is. I thought the footsteps below is pretty interesting. Clearly, it was two people walking towards different direction. I wondered if they were walking along this path at the same time, if they did, did they know each other? If they don't, did they still look up and acknowledge each other? If they didn't, were they rushing to finish that assignment that is due in 2 hours? Hehe, it can be pretty fun to let our imagination run wild sometimes! I would say that these two person did not cross path but were quietly enjoying the peace on campus while walking to their first job schedule in the morning, just before the student rush to morning class starts.
The river on campus is mostly frozen too except for a small area near the admin building, one of my favorite area on campus. That is where the ducks hang out too, even now that it is freezing cold.
But now that it is so cold out, not many people goes to the river to hang out and feed the ducks. They must be really hungry because anyone who goes near the river, they will come close, hoping that they will be fed. When John and I went by the river just before Christmas, we sat by the stairs and it felt like they were going to eat me up!
All the trees on campus are covered with snow. Somehow the snow gives them a character because now they look like animated trees walking all around campus. :P
Besides human footsteps, there are tons of different types of footsteps on the snow. It is always fun to try to guess who made them. This one must be a rabbit one.
Let it snow, let it snow!!

甜甜的

今年的情人節我收到好特別的禮物...那東西並不特別, 但那心意讓我非常的感動. 因為是他自己弄的喔! 那禮物就是...

當全部的零食摻起來, 那就叫'snack mix'. 平常'snack mix' 都會有些'pretzels', 各種炒貨, 巧克力, 和乾果. 我收到的有杏仁, 藍莓, 小紅莓, 櫻桃, 葡萄乾和最好吃的黑巧克力依macadamia! 通通都好吃, 參起來更好吃! 好甜蜜, 好幸福的感覺喔!!

甜甜的

我輕輕的嚐一口, 你說的愛我,
還在會味你給過的溫柔,
我輕輕的嚐一口,這香濃的誘惑,
我喜歡的樣子你都有.

Ethiopian Lunch

It reminds me of chapati. It also reminds me of back home because their tradition is to eat with your hands instead of utensils.

Me and ahdik went out for lunch today to celebrate ahdik getting a new job - a supplementary instructor (yep, surprise, surprise!). We went to an Ethiopian restaurant called Altu's. I went there once with the TT, Pei and Jo a few years back and liked it but haven't been back since.

Ethiopian food (at least from what I had in the restaurant) reminds of chapati. Every dish comes with a spongy bread that taste exactly like chapati except it is much more spongy. Their dishes are a variety of vegetable or meat stew. Their vegetarian dishes are mostly beans or peas. Since I have been making lots of beans and peas stew recently (actually, ever since I find out how easy it is to make them with the slow cooker!), both of us got their chicken stew. The chicken stew dish also comes with cabbage that reminds me of the nasi lemak stall at the corner restaurant at Mentari Business Park. We used to ta pau that for lunch after school as it is one of the fastest thing to get. Plus, the auntie also have mummy and my favorite ikan pari!
Besides the unique type of food, the restaurant setup is also different. They have regular booth seating at the edge and in the middle of the restaurant, they have this 'kalo' looking thing. When they serve the food, they will take the top off and turn it around so it becomes like a table.

Huat arrrr!!!

Keong Hee Huat Chai!! (Happy New Year!) Hor ni huat tua cai! (Have a prosperous tiger year!)

Without the M'sians this year, I didn't have a party at my place. But it was still a fun weekend with friends from a different lab. After the crazy weeks of presentations, posters, sampling in the freezing weather and long overnight experiments, it feels great to take a weekend off.

The weekend started with my first sledding and cross-country skiing (nope, I didn't cross-country, it is just called cross-country). Sledding is definitely much more fun than skiing. I can barely move my skiis and when I finally did, I kept falling down! Lucky thing there was inches and inches of snow! Going downhill is fun but I can't go up hill at all! It took me forever to go uphill because I kept slipping downhill. Sledding was scary initially but after a few trips down the hill, it was lots of fun! I'm the one in the yellow round tube. Another scary thing is there are lots of kids who do not get out of the way fast enough and I have no idea how to stop the tube or how to avoid them! I almost bumped into the little boy down there but lucky thing he stepped back fast enough.
The next day, which is the first day of CNY itself, Fan and I went for dim sum with some friends at a chinese restaurant called Golden Wok. It is the only restaurant in town that serves dim sum on a cart like it should be. Due to the large crowd (Duh! It is Cheh It!), they kept running out of stuff...like my favorite Wu Kok and the Tao Phui filled with pork. They did have 'kae kah' but we were there with a bunch of American friends so I didn't order that. Nothing beats the original dim sum in Hong Kong and of course, the one in Tai Tong, Penang (daddy, we have to go there for breakfast one morning!). Steph, it sounds like you have a much tastier dim sum stuff than I did!!!

Halfway through our dim sum brunch, they presented a lion dance!!! What a surprise! I never thought I would see one here at Michigan!!! It was a little weird since the lion was dancing around in the restaurant. The last lion dance I saw was during CNY in 2008 at Uncle Thean Yong's family CNY gathering.
The lion dance at Golden Wok...

After the dim sum brunch, we went over to a friend's house to make and of course, eat, dumplings! When we had enough dumplings, we played a fun card game which involves a lot of drinking. Hehe, good thing Datuk Loo does not know this game...otherwise, I would be drunk everytime we have a gathering. I kept losing! Without Datuk Loo, I just drank water. Hehe, yes, and yet I am the one who kept losing. It still amaze me how much beer people can drink, as we then proceed to play 'Flippy Cup'. It is another drinking game where one have to drink the beer and then flip the cup over on the table. The group that finishes the fastest win.

That about sums up my CNY. Not traditional but it was fun!

Ping vs. Virus 'Annoy-za'

I knew it was coming this weekend when the cough came back and sore throat started. Yesterday's freezing cold weather did not help either, especially since I had to take the 15 minutes walk to Goodrich to get soymilk for breakfast (although I really could have made do with that remaining bit since I only used a little of the new one this morning).

Round 1!
Ping need to process the biomass from yesterday's experiment vs. 'Annoy-za'

It started getting worst when I was going in and out of the walk-in cold room (4C). Seriously, someone need to take the responsibility to clean up that place. I did it last year, not doing again. Since I made it all the way to 3pm and finished up today's lab report, Round 1, 'Annoy-za' down!

Round 2! ('Annoy-za' is standing back up!)
Ping need to finish reading the paper on Marx's theory as the foundation for environmental sociology but clearly, I am not doing that right now. Am not getting anything into the brain cells anymore. I have been reading the sentence "This emphasis on historical changes in soil fertility in the direction of agricultural improvement was to be a continuing theme in Marx's thought, though it eventually came to be coupled with an understanding of how capitalist agriculture could undermine the conditions of soil fertility, resulting in soil degradation rather than improvement." for I have no idea how many times and I can't seem to move further. Errr...the most common feedback I get from my writings is 'you need to shorten your sentence'. This sentence is from a paper published in American Journal of Sociology and I think it tops any of my long sentence! It must be a sociology thing because most of the sentences in this paper is super long. Well, since I am really getting side-track, I guess 'Annoy-za' wins Round 2.

Round 3! (Of course Ping is not down yet!)
Instead, I just had two oranges, a kiwi, and a cup of echinacea tea. That should knock this annoying 'Annoy-za' down. But I am going to go take a nap (nope, not the result of Round 3, just the consequence of Round 2). Round 3 results yet to be posted...(maybe MSU's win against the Badgers tonight might do it..hehe).
Zzzzzzzz

Butterfly World, Florida

How often do you get to see a butterfly stay around long enough for you to capture a good photo of it? I haven't got one...until this trip to the Butterfly World. It is really magical to be surrounded by soooo many butterflies!! They are everywhere and there was even one or two who landed on me a few times!! We got there first thing in the morning right when they opened and we didn't leave until almost 5pm! It was lots of fun that I have the D5000 too because I get to take lots of macro photos. I get to play around with the video function too. The videos are a little blur since it was my first day playing with them and still learning how to focus. I also do not have a video editing software so I can't lighten some of them that is too bright. Hmm...Yong, any recommendation?

Here is one with a 'halu' butterfly that eventually got the other butterfly to fly too...Mei, reminds me of you lah. :P



Besides butterflies, they also have a birds garden. Most of the birds there are pretty small as they are finches and hummingbirds. They are also very active so it was a lot more challenging to capture them. We did spend a lot of time with the Macaws. They have an interesting interaction.


There was also a rose garden and a passion vine but they were not flowering yet. If it was flowering, we would probably be there for a longer time! Having the camera adds on to the fun but it was still amazing to just be there with all the butterflies and birds, to explore their bug museum that has all kinds of creepy looking bugs which you never want to encounter in real life and to just walk around the park.

Pompano Beach, Florida

I spent this past winter break at Pompano Beach, Florida. It is a city just north of Fort Lauderdale and about an hour north of Miami. The place we stayed is right by the North Atlantic Ocean! We just have to walk out of the condo and we are on the beach!! Just like staying at Rasa Sayang.

View of the beach from the balcony...

The beach...

Unexpectedly, it wasn't as warm as I hoped so we didn't get to swim in the ocean or hang out at the beach much (although I should have remembered that when we went to Disney World in Orlando, it was actually quite cold). On the other hand, the clear blue sky and sunny weather makes being in Florida much more enjoyable than in Michigan. John and I still go out everyday to walk along the beach and do other fun stuff. I love the beach there! It is very clean, just like Taman Negara Pulau Pinang. Ooo, I also got my first pedicure!!

On the first day that we arrived, we went out to a park - Hillsboro Inlet Park - near one of the popular landmark of Pompano Beach - Hillsboro Lighthouse. It was very windy but I totally didn't realize initially because there was a pelican type bird that came by and I was super excited to be playing with my new camera!

With the unobstructed view, we were also able to watch the Sun rises every morning! It is definitely my first time lying on the beach and watching the Sun rise. From the multiple mornings that we were there, we figured out that it is only interesting when the Sun is initially rising, which started at like 6.30am or so and last for about 10-15 minutes. It was freezing on one of the days that we were out! Then the Sun disappears behind a thick layer of clouds at the horizon. At 7.30am, it gets interesting again as the clouds rise and disperse, you see the light rays cutting through the clouds. On the coldest day that we were out watching the sun rises on the east, we also get to see the moon shining bright on the other side. Definitely one of my favorite sunrise experience!

Even though it was cold, we would still go to a nearby ice-cream store - Razzleberry's Ice-cream. We went there 3 times! It is only about 20 minutes walk (on the beach) from the condo. We would also stop to take photos of the birds that hangs out at the beach. This one below must have its leg broken or sprained or something because it was limping and didn't seem to be able to have it spread out.

A 'sand pit' that we came across on the beach...

There is also lots and lots of coconut tree, just like you see in the movies!

At night, we also get to see the moon's reflection in the ocean and various patterns of the clouds covering the moon. It is just great to be out there! It feels so pristine and peaceful.

John took more cool panorama photos of the beach.

Happy Birthday!

Happy Birthday to mummy and daddy!

This photo was taken from the balcony just after the Sun had completely rised from the horizon. Every time I see the Sun rises, it makes me think of home...no matter how far away I am from home, at least I know that when you see the Sun sets in M'sia, I see the same Sun rises here in the States.

Kam siah for all the support that you have both given me!

Bunch of new toys

Am back in East Lansing! Fortunately, I get to come back to sunny Michigan with blue skies, which is very rare in winter. The cold is much more bearable when there is snow on the ground and you can feel a little warmth from the sunshine.

After all the housekeeping stuff and catching up with all the papers I missed during break, am now back to planning experiments for the coming week. This is the longest break I have ever taken and not gone home to Malaysia...hehe...

Over the break, I somehow inherited a bunch of new toys..wait, actually, it should be A LOT of new stuff, some of them happen to be cool toys. Crazy as it sounds, I have sooo many presents from John and his family! 超尷尬的!! 但也很感動. 他們真的很熱情. One of the gift I received from John was the most unexpected gift I have ever gotten...a Nikon D5000! 在開禮物的時候, 感動到熱淚盈眶. It is also very sweet of him to let me use his macro lens to play with it...hehe...until I go back to Malaysia for some shopping! Hehe, I guess somewhere in my Flickr, he must have seen a photo that shows I do know something about photography that got me this camera.

The first few photos I took with it...

It does not have auto focus motor so it took me quite a while to get sharp images. The weight of an SLR camera also makes it much more difficult to get nice macro photos so Ping has lots more to learn!!! This combination will be good for me to practice focusing with stable hands.

The other new toy...was acquired while we were at Florida. We went to Ikea one of the day to help John's parents get furniture for the condo. While walking through the toys section, we saw this huge and cuddly elephant...and it came home with me all the way to Lansing to join my elephant collection!! Hehe, another unexpected one...or maybe not...for those who have gone shopping with me. *bleh* Wei Qi is now my first elephant with tusks! 也是John 送我的第一個毛絨玩具!

Los Alamos, New Mexico

最近很忙, 有好多experiment 要做. But it is pretty exciting time! I am sooo glad that I took over this project. In the past 8 months since my last committee meeting, I have way more useful data than all the experiments combined from the 2nd and 3rd year. 但有時候,若是有空,還是比較喜歡弄scrapbooking. :P 沒想到, 這短短的半年裡, 我的生活突然有那麼多的故事了.

Alright, here comes the Los Alamos trip...

Albuquerque airport is about 2 hours away from Los Alamos, which is where Steph is working at right now. She picked me up from the airport and we went over to Santa Fe, which is the capitol of New Mexico, for a late lunch. Unlike Michigan, the 1.5 hours ride from East Lansing to Detroit airport, while dull, is occasionally greeted with various towns and signs of life. The approximately 45 minutes drive to Santa Fe is surrounded by mountains and flatlands with very little flora. It sure is very brown.

It does get more interesting once we get to Santa Fe. The buildings are very unique, having flat roofs and are mostly made of concrete (as opposed to the more common wooden houses in Michigan). But I still think that their color choice of 'earth tone' is still too boring, as much as I love nature. We had a traditional Mexican lunch at Maria's. I had a platter of Blue Corn Enchilada that comes with Spanish rice and refried beans. They serve the meal with some kind of puffy bread that you eat with honey known as Sopaipillas.

After lunch, Steph brought me to the Santa Fe Plaza. It is a touristy area with shops selling various types of art, specifically, locally made New Mexico style art.

While it was interesting to see the arts of New Mexico, it is definitely not my kind of thing as the jewelleries are very bold (those that is very 'cha bak') and the decor art are too weird looking and as Steph also mentioned, you wouldn't know what to do with them. Like this piggy here...

One thing that you see everywhere is this Ristra. It is a bunch of dried chilli that they keep around for later consumption. Isn't that convenient?

Within the plaza area is also a chapel, the Loretto Chapel, that has a unique staircase. This staircase was built by a mysterious carpenter that disappeared after he completed it. Until today, it is still a puzzle how the staircase was built as it has no support and uses no nails. I think because this is such a precious architecture, they charge people to enter the chapel, which I was surprised when we first walked in to the chapel.

We arrived at Los Alamos when it was pretty dark out so I didn't get to see much until the next day. Steph has a very nice apartment with tall ceiling and has lots of windows for the sunlight to enter. The next day, we went hiking at Bandelier National Monument. It is a national park with ruins left over from the Pueblo era. The Pueblos are Native Americans who lived in the soutwest region of the States. I wonder how many people in the States today is still a Pueblo descendant.

The view of the park from one of the mesa.

We hiked through the Main Loop Trail, which goes through the archaeological sites. These walls made up the Tyuonyi, where some of the Pueblo people used to live in. Can you imagine living in such tiny spaces? I think I would be claustrophobic!

Some of them live up in the rocks that looks like Swiss cheese. These rocks are made of volcanic ash that got compacted over time. They make rooms out of those holes within the rock and strengthen their rooms by smoking the ceilings.

Some live even higher up, like this Alcove House. We have to climb 4 tall wooden ladders to get up to the top. Can you imagine carrying a bunch of wood and food they gather up these ladders?

The park maintains the archaelogical sites pretty well as you can still see some remains of the petroglyph that the Pueblo people used to make.

After we finished walking the Main Loop, we hike through the Falls Trail. The trail ends at the Rio Grande, where part of it forms the US-Mexico border. We didn't walk that far and the river didn't look very appealing either.

Similar to the chaparral in Arizona, Bandelier also has very little signs of life. In fact, at the time when I was there, it felt even more serene as the trees barely look alive and we only bumped into one squirrel which I call it the bunny-squirrel because it has long ears like rabbits.

We did walk past a waterfall that runs into a stream leading into the Rio Grande. This made me realized that as much as I love being out in the nature and hiking through national parks, having a waterfall or lake or some kind of pristine water body makes it much more interesting. It reminds me our home back in Penang. Although it is smack right in the middle of a tourist area, it is only within minutes away from the beach, the waterfall, the national forest, and mountains and parks. Mummy and daddy, thanks for such a wonderful place for me to go back to whenever I need a break!

The view of Los Alamos with the Rocky Mountains in the background. See the snow-capped mountain? That is the first time I have seen one!! (Reminded me of the hymn "His Love Lit Image" we used to sing in Sunday school). They must have gotten quite a lot of snow already as Steph pointed out a few mountain tops with enough snow for skiing. Isn't it amazing that just within a small geographical area, Steph and I was standing by some rocks with only a sweatshirt and when we look up, we see snow and there could be people up there in their winter coat, skiing!

Besides getting to hang out with Steph, the other highlight of my trip is - the blue skies!!! Steph said that it is actually cloudier than normal but coming from the rainy, gloomy Michigan for the past several weeks, it is actually refreshing!!

The trip ended with a yummy Italian dinner home-cooked by Steph before I have to leave for Michigan the next morning.

There may not be much to do in Los Alamos but I was glad to see Steph and catch up with her again. It is great to have friends that even after two years of not seeing each other, we are still bffs! It is even more special because Steph was the first person I met coming here to MSU. Lost and not knowing how to approach a professor, I bumped into Steph on the hallway of the BPS 6th floor. She offered her email address and I thought that she is the nicest person ever! Later, being in the same lab as her, I am glad I get to meet her before she graduated because she IS the nicest person, sweetest friend (she remembered my favorite Swiss Roll!) and the greatest mentor ever! (I love you Steph!) Really wish that one day, we (along with Kristi, Kristin and Jen) could all have a reunion somewhere. I might get to see Steph again next year at Seattle but will have to see what the 老闆 says about the abstract first.

Arizona State University

Walking around the campus of Arizona State University made me realize one thing - MSU's campus will always be my favorite campus. We have the prettiest landscapes and gardens with lots and lots of colorful plants. The few campuses that I have been to in the US (besides ASU and MSU) are Stanford University in California, Boston University, Harvard University and Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Massachusetts, Western Michigan University, University of Michigan, Central Michigan University and Wayne State University in Michigan, and University of Illinois - Urbana Champaign in Illinois. They each have their specialty but MSU is still my favorite in terms of the look of the campus.

ASU is much smaller than MSU and the buildings are much closer to each other. In fact, it actually feels like SS15 without the crazy number of cars. Just right across the road from the campus are a variety of shops from restaurants and bars to clothing stores. While ASU have less greeneries (maybe because it is located at a desert area), its buildings have more interesting architecture. The two major plants (besides cactus) that are widely spread at ASU campus is the bitter/sour orange (Citrus aurantium, hmm, I wonder if there is any link between this orange tree and the bacteria Spirochaeta aurantia) tree

and this bright colored flowers that seem to clusters in pairs.

The nice thing about the ASU campus is it is very friendly to people who like to walk and there are lots of stuff to see within walking distance, unlike at East Lansing, where there is not much going on within walking distance. A nice place that I really like is the Tempe Beach Park, especially at night. It reminds me of Esplanade, Penang. From the park, you can see the Mill Avenue bridges that cross the Tempe Lake and the Valley Metro Light Rail bridge. The Metro Light Rail is similar to our Putra LRT. It connects ASU all the way to Phoenix downtown. The colored bridge below is the bridge for the Light Rail. The color changes every day and it is cool when the train comes because the colored lights will chase after the train.

At the north edge of the campus is a mountain with a huge A on it. It is like The Rock at MSU although they don't mess it up as much and it is not as high in demand like the Rock. From this mountain, you can see both sunset and sunrise and I saw both on it too!!

As for the shops around campus, there are tons of different restaurants serving food of different culture (hehe, except Malaysian! This will always be the one factor that makes Malaysia special because there is no other country that have mamak!). Besides the regular chain restaurants that you can find anywhere in the US, they also have chains that are more specific to the southwest region like Jack in the Box and non-chain local restaurants. We went to a Mexican restaurant the first night I was there and P.F. Chang's on my last night there. 和John出去吃飯很輕鬆因為我們不會常常去吃那些典型美國菜.他對別文明美食還蠻有興趣的. 有幾次我不太敢約他和我們一起出去吃飯因為不懂他會不會喜歡我們吃的食物.但,我們有一次辦BBQ的時候, 我約他去, 他好多食物都嚐試.這次, 我們去P.F. Chang's 的時候, 我看到有烤鴨,好興奮喔!好久沒吃烤鴨了.我問他,他會不會吃鴨, 他竟然說他嚐過!太好了! Hehe. So we end up ordering our favorite Chicken Lettuce Wrap, VIP Duck (which is basically the same concept as Beijing Roast Duck but they serve it with tortilla wraps instead of the puffy buns) and a salmon dish (是的, 他也很喜歡吃魚!所以我們出去時, 我常常有得吃魚!). They have one of the best fish dishes because they add enough spices to make it tasty and still taste the fish and don't cook it too long that the fish becomes dry.

On my last day there, we walked through their 'Union', which is known as the Memorial Union. They have tons of stuff to eat there!!! They even have a Cold Stone Creamery right in there (in addition to one that is just right off campus!). Since we already got our dose of Cold Stone ice-cream the day before, we went to Einstein Bros. Bagels for breakfast. They have a really yummy bagel called the green pepper bagel.

There are definitely still more stuff to explore there ...hehe, if I get to make another trip there. :P

We beat Gonzaga!!

Argh, I am still so hyper from the game!! This is definitely the first exciting game of the season! It is also our first test since the previous games were all against not so 'geng' schools. Hehe.

Pei, why must the time difference between us be so much different!!! I am so hyper I need to talk to someone!! You are like the only person I know who is as gila over basketball as me. OMG, Morgan fell and held his ankle sometime during the first half. I thought he was going to hurt himself again!! The entire stadium was soo supportive as everyone chanted his name. He did went out but came back shortly before the first half ended. About 2 minutes or so before the end of the game, he got fouled out but he managed to score 16 points for us. Definitely better than the last game when he got 0-0 from the line. He started out pretty bad but improved a lot within this game! Go Morgan!!

Chris Allen didn't do as well this game and neither did Roe. In fact, Roe scored 0 and got fouled out! Allen had tons of opportunity to do a 3 point but he hesitated in all of them except one, ending with a total of 5 points. So disappointing! This game is pretty much Morgan, Summers and Lucas' game as they gave a total of 66 points out of the 75-71 win over Gonzaga.

The first half was so disappointing as we never came close to leading at all except for the first 2 points. Once Gonzago scored, they just kept going. Thankfully, the second half was much better for us. There were a lot of ties and leading by 2-3 points. It makes the game so much more 刺激!

Pei, this video is for you just incase you miss the MSU band. :P

十一月五號

今天是一個很特別的日子. 這一天我發現了三件事...

1. 我終於和我自己承認了. 我們一開始做"let's see how this semester go" 的約定已經不夠. Pei, 你說的一切, 我這一天才敢想起.

2. 這一切比做夢更美. 我一直想,什麼時候會恍然醒悟. 今天我發現,這個美麗的夢是現實,而且,更棒!

3. 我曾經以為西方男生不比我們華人會疼女孩 (Haha, maybe that is why there is no good way to express 'manja' in English). 我錯了. 雖然他比我小幾年, 他仍然會給那被照顧, 被manja的感覺.

雖然發現了這些,有點可怕,但覺得這一切都是值得去體驗. 愛. 若是正直和單純,那才是真的. 不需要搞到複雜,因為間單才會帶來開心和幸福.

周杰倫 - 間單愛

我想就這樣牽著你的手不放開,

愛可不可以間間單單沒有傷害,

你, 靠著我的肩膀,

你, 在我胸口水餃,

像這樣的生活我愛你, 你愛我.

I'm on top of the world! This picture was taken by John when we were up on one of the mountains by Apache Trail.